http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/tags/android Imaginitive Game Development en-US Mon, 04 Jan 2021 02:30:26 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/search.php http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5588 Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:24:52 +0000 SteveCastro 5588@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>I do like the idea of still using 2D vectors for resolution independent graphics. All the stuff I'm interested in tends to be cartoonish anyway, and of course for Jay as well, so it should be doable in some way.</p> <p>However, even cartoon graphics look even better with an illustrated painterly look, with painted shading/lighting, which might be harder to capture with vectors. I feel like 2D gameplay with 3D graphics still doesn't quite capture the feel that I really love with games like Braid, Spelunky, Machinarium, and I imagine 2D vector rendered graphics having the same limitation.</p> <p>Just seems like nothing beats a lovingly hand-crafted pre-rendered spritesheet. FYI, I'm not a fan of 8-bit graphics either, I'm talking about HD cartoony characters.</p> <p>However, as a developer it is a pain to have to maintain a number of different assets for different resolutions. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5585 Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:01:37 +0000 Earl 5585@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>The one concern I have with going from vector back to raster is the issue of dealing with multiple resolutions.<br /> Example, a 720p television is far better than an old-school 480i, right? All other things considered equal, the answer is easy: Yup.</p> <p>But, try playing something like the Wii (or pretty much any other 'standard def' media source) on 720p television, and they'll look like crap (or possibly simply "bad", if the tv is particularly good at intelligent scaling).</p> <p>The same thing happens when playing old videogames on emulators, and trying anything other than their original native resolution, or some multiple thereof.</p> <p>The way Android wants you to solve this is to simply include multiple copies of <em>all</em> of your graphics resources. That's needlessly large. And, it still doesn't really perfectly match different resolutions.</p> <p>Of course, the other fun side of the coin is the difference between actual resolution (pixel density), and what we typically call resolution (dimensions). It seems like it <em>should</em> have solutions that overlap with the previously mentioned one, but in practice it may not. (Google's developer site has some interesting perspective on this, but think about things like font sizes, and it's quick to see the issue)</p> <p>Bah. I did it again. Never was "concise". The point is, with both the trend towards mobile markets, and the increasing variety of high-powered mobile devices, vector graphics were good because they could be adapted to anything. Raster images simply aren't as flexible.</p> <p>In theory, developers are starting to be encouraged to use things like HTML5, SVG, etc., for the actual content of games, and then a small bit of native-friendly framework to run it on top of. In practice, I've yet to see that actually catch on. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5584 Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:27:02 +0000 darkbluemullet 5584@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>It does run but as Jay said, like crap. I had the Kongregate Arcade App at one point on my phone but deleted it after a few days because almost every game was nearly unplayable. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5583 Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:15:06 +0000 tman140 5583@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Correction Jay, It doesn't run on mobile devices. :( </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5582 Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:53:27 +0000 darkbluemullet 5582@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>So basically moving from AS3 to C++? Last question (promise). When you are working with Flash, can you only write in AS? And with Marmalade, is that a multi language platform? </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5581 Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:40:25 +0000 JayZiebarth 5581@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Well I think if we're doing web games we'll still use flash as we always have. The real change will be if we make bigger games like Ballads, then we'll probably use Marmalade to create it.</p> <p> To succeed in the commercial space these days your game really has to be multi platform and mobile ready, which Marmalade allows for. I still love using Flash, unfortunately it runs like crap on mobile devices. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5580 Sat, 18 Aug 2012 19:18:53 +0000 tman140 5580@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>yup, adobe's decision... just remembered a old post where i asked about flash dying out... lol guess I was right. They stopped supporting all mobile platforms and are sticking to pc/mac/linux. I also remember rumors in Jan about them deciding to go pull flash out completely in 2013. we will see i guess. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5579 Sat, 18 Aug 2012 04:47:09 +0000 darkbluemullet 5579@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>So (remembering that I am a noob), what platform will your art be exported to and then the game developed on? I am assuming that when you upload a game to sites when it goes viral, it is .fla file? What will it be now and will that affect anything? i.e. sites that only accept .fla or anything like that? </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5577 Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:20:09 +0000 JayZiebarth 5577@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Right now it hasn't affected how I actually create the art and animations. I still use Flash in the same way. If anything it has freed me up to colour the scenes any way I want now that flash performance isn't an issue. The big change for me is having to export everything as bitmaps and create sprite sheets for all my animations. Which is an added step but not that big of a deal. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5575 Fri, 17 Aug 2012 11:09:46 +0000 darkbluemullet 5575@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>It does seem that HTML5 is growing all the time. Unity has really impressed me. Some of the games I have played are absolutely huge and fell as though they should be pay to play at times. Regarding the bitmap rendering, will that affect how you guys (Jay in particular) tackle the art of future games or will it remain the same way that Jay does it now? </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5573 Wed, 15 Aug 2012 13:56:08 +0000 SteveCastro 5573@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Very cool DBM! Good luck with school.</p> <p>HTML5 seems very promising. Unity is cool. There are other cross-platform tools like Moai (<a href="http://getmoai.com/" rel="nofollow">http://getmoai.com/</a>) using Lua scripting and Marmalade (<a href="http://madewithmarmalade.com/" rel="nofollow">http://madewithmarmalade.com/</a>) using C++. Anything that is cross-platform and performs well on lower processing speeds is where you want to be.</p> <p>Flash was cool when processing power wasn't really an issue (though even with Ballads we ran into some issues with lots of alphas), but I think the mobile scene brought us back to worrying about processors, plus battery life. So we need more performance optimization than Flash currently offers with its timeline and vector based approach, but still have the quality expectations that the Flash gaming scene has created.<br /> Flash is also awesome for rapid-development but typically at the expense of performance.</p> <p>Basically, all of the good options going forward use bitmap rendering again instead of vector drawings so they can perform better on all kinds of devices. I think it's interesting that Castle Crashers was made in Flash using vectors, but when running on the XBox while loading a level it converts all the vector data into bitmap data.</p> <p>That's just my take on it at this particular time. I'm no expert on the subject, just learning as I go. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5572 Tue, 14 Aug 2012 15:09:18 +0000 darkbluemullet 5572@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Believe it or not, I am away to go back to full time education, studying Software Development! (I am going to do a long winded post here soon...)</p> <p> If Flex/Flash is on the way out what do you feel is the future Steve? HTML5? What does that mean for you guys then in terms of web games?</p> <p> What does your C++ knowledge give you now that you didn't have before?</p> <p> Tell me it all!! :) </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5571 Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:37:19 +0000 SteveCastro 5571@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Very interesting. I looked into it, and it's actually Adobe who decided they won't be supporting it on Android it seems?</p> <p>I definitely think that it's a great time for us to be learning mobile development with something other than Flash at this point because it does seem to be in the process of fading out.</p> <p>I have to say, now that I'm using C++ it really is nice to have the kind of power to do anything or change anything under the hood that we need. I know with Ballads we were really pushing the limits of what Flash could handle, and I was starting to run into some of the strangest quirks in the way Flash processes things behind the scenes, so I'm glad to be branching out right now. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5570 Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:04:44 +0000 darkbluemullet 5570@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Very odd to say the least. have they said why? Google must have something up it's sleeve. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/android-41-no-longer-flash-supported#post-5569 Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:59:13 +0000 tman140 5569@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Well, i just learned that flash is no longer supported on Jelly Bean, androids newest version. I was gonna get a nexus 7 because i am taking a class where we make android apps, and was wanting one anyway because of flash support instead of apples no flash policy. darn. anyone else bummed about this? </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1081 Tue, 01 Jun 2010 17:53:56 +0000 TheRedMelon 1081@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>This may of already been said since i only read the first page of posts but it would have to be able to be learning all the time, like humans are learning something new everyone day. It would be near impossible to enter everything about everything into an android since even we know barely nothing about the universe around us. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1067 Tue, 01 Jun 2010 14:09:16 +0000 tman140 1067@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>@ Earl, What...... oh wait..... huh.... </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1062 Tue, 01 Jun 2010 11:20:06 +0000 Earl 1062@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Interesting note on the 'colour' thing: Magenta is a figment of the mind.<br /> (Well, I mean, <em>all</em> colours, like all sounds, are only in the head... but magenta even more so) It doesn't really exist. :D </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1061 Tue, 01 Jun 2010 10:52:56 +0000 SteveCastro 1061@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Earl, I subscribe to the compatibilist determinism view, so I think quantifying consciousness doesn't preclude sentience of the kind that humans have. That being said, I'm pretty sure human intelligence will never be fully quantified since this mind-body-state thing is a constant flux and extremely dynamic, and probably depends on so many 3 dimensional particles being at precise locations that I'm not sure how you would read that in. I think I heard somewhere that it would take a bunch of empire state buildings full of hard-drives to hold the information about all the particles in a single humans body. Sure we can improve our storage capabilities, but how do you scan every single particle's 3D location without disturbing the thing being analyzed? Perhaps we don't need every particle and lots of it can be approximated to good enough result, but ultimately consciousness is a very personal experience anyway. I can't even quantify another human's consciousness or even guarantee that another human IS conscious (let alone robot consciousness). You can quantify the color red as the length of a wave, but I can (probably) never know how it is that you experience that color visually. Perhaps you could stream consciousness into another person's mind and get a good idea, but even then, wouldn't it end up filtering through your own understanding of the color red and not necessarily the original person's? I digress.</p> <p>Also, in regard to motive: you would definitely want the robot you dumped millions of dollars in to not just step off the edge of the building or jump into a pool of water (unless it's a swimmer), and so you would want to make sure it was capable of basic self-preservation. If it was truly mobile, able to roam free terrain and capable of learning how better to preserve itself in dynamic conditions, then that's exactly the kind of motive that any living thing has to stay at the top of the food chain. However, there's no particular reason that agile learning robots need to desire preservation of other robots, unless these robots were designed or learned to build other robots and had a strong inclination to maintain their creations or something. So you might have a robot killing people but not necessarily banding together with other robots.</p> <p>Also, I think it would be a bad idea to create more consciousness in the world that already has more than we can responsibly account for. It would create so many ethical dilemmas that our heads would explode. :D </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1057 Mon, 31 May 2010 16:24:44 +0000 Earl 1057@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Howdy folks.</p> <p>No, I didn't just ask a question and then drop off the planet. To be honest, I didn't want to meddle and interfere with people's answers. :D</p> <p>I think everyone with an opinion has expressed it by now, so it's time to reply. (Incidentally, this is something like the fifth time I've tried to have this conversation, but <em>easily</em> the best response I've ever gotten!)</p> <p>Jay, that's a good idea. Something like humour had never occurred to me.</p> <p>Darkroot, it's interesting that you brought up learning. I've actually written software that modifies its own code before (look up "genetic programming" for a really interesting read), but it's typically task-oriented. "Unsupervised learning" and metaprogramming don't usually go together, but that could, indeed, be a very interesting benchmark.</p> <p>Steve, you bring up a topic that's actually <em>immensely</em> important.<br /> <em>"making unusual associations between things would be good signs of consciousness"</em><br /> One of the most fundamental elements of human consciousness is <em>context</em>; the ability to form connections between different concepts. If a machine could really achieve such a thing, that would be staggering.<br /> As for your suggestion that consciousness requires a body state... heh. I knew you'd be good at this. That's precisely the reason I said "android" instead of "computer". Some philosophers believe that intelligence is impossible without a body.</p> <p>darkbluemullet, you bring up an interesting point: art. It actually reminds me of a scene in I, Robot (I know, it was a book too, right I never read it). Smith's character asks Sunny if he can write a symphony, to which Sunny replies, "No. Can you?" Always loved that part.<br /> That said, there's actually been a decent amount of research done trying to get computers to create 'art' (both visual and musical). The idea is to take existing works of art, isolate elements/colours/textures/sounds/etc. that are pleasing to humans, and then to try to 'learn' how to produce new works that people like. Some works turn out better than others.</p> <p>Something indirectly related to whether or not computers would take over, or get around 'firewalls' is <em>motive</em>. Another possible gauge of intelligence isn't whether or not it can be made to solve problems, but rather whether it will have the sense of 'initiative' to do so.</p> <p>As for my own opinion... well, that's part of why I waited to comment again in this thread. I know too much about computers and AI to believe it's really ever possible. At the very least, I don't think I could ever believe it unless I knew <em>precisely</em> how that "intelligence" was achieved. And then... well... that'd beg the question of whether or not true intelligence was ever possible at all. There's a school of thought that consciousness and free will can't exist if you can fully understand and quantize them.</p> <p>However, just for ha-ha's... I think a good (potential) sign of intelligence would be if it were able to realize that, in a pinch, a pair of pliers could also act as a hammer. Or that a cardboard box can also be a 'table' if that's all you have around to set your drink on. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1029 Sat, 29 May 2010 13:52:54 +0000 darkbluemullet 1029@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>How would you know it was scared? It could be a programme to react to things. action_scared_shit:pants&gt;/true ;P </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1014 Fri, 28 May 2010 17:20:46 +0000 spookspoon 1014@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>It would only convinse me if it can get scared like normal people. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1011 Fri, 28 May 2010 12:38:14 +0000 jeltevl 1011@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>I think so incognito</p> <p>also i think it wil confince me as it makes human mistakes. I mean even the little mistakes like forget something that is not very important. (Going to buy some bread and milk and forget the milk) Or when it say something that you don't want say or say something wrong. Example: saying a word like tooth when you mean food. Or say something you were think about but not want to say loudly.<br /> When a android can make some of that little mistakes I shall be convinced. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1010 Fri, 28 May 2010 11:11:47 +0000 xXincognitoXx 1010@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS NONE OF THIS?!?!?!?!?! </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1009 Fri, 28 May 2010 06:25:08 +0000 tman140 1009@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>@ darkroot, if it could change its own programing then it could proably find its way around its "firewall" problem. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1004 Fri, 28 May 2010 04:49:51 +0000 darkbluemullet 1004@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>@Darkroot, that's just the thing. I wouldn't give it a canvas and say paint something, I would simply ask it to create art without instructions, tools, etc and see what it comes up with. An programme could well be built in to create a painting or sculpture or something but if I were to keep asking it to create more and more and it was different and varied every time then I think I would start to become convinced. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-1003 Fri, 28 May 2010 04:43:05 +0000 darkbluemullet 1003@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Ha ha, maybe you are just a poorly designed droid Incognito ;P </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-994 Thu, 27 May 2010 21:11:21 +0000 xXincognitoXx 994@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>Like I said, I lost track of the question/explanation after the first sentance. I am completely lost here. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-991 Thu, 27 May 2010 21:04:04 +0000 spookspoon 991@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>btw darkroot im sorry but someone already paid me 11 dollars. </p> http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/topic/what-would-it-take-to-convince-you#post-988 Thu, 27 May 2010 20:49:44 +0000 Darkroot 988@http://www.clickshakegames.com/forum/ <p>@darkbluemullet what do you define as art? You could program a computer to randomly do tasks that affect the canvas in different unique ways?</p> <p>@xXincognitoXx you could program a chess AI that acted like it had that you could make a sad function that if it's wining it gives you a chance. You write another program to cheat but then another one called ethics to prevent it. That still doesn't mean it is intelligent.</p> <p>@tman101 Would it thought? If someone was responsible in their programming and design that could be prevented. </p>